I believed for a long time that games with many turns or rounds mitigated the advantage gained by going first (or turn order in general). Now I'm not convinced of that at all. Even in long games of chess, white has an advantage of between 52-56%. In very long games that we play like Eurorails, other players are routinely one or two turn away from going out when someone finally does. And many longer games can end that way - i.e. after several hours of play, one player goes out and ends the game a turn before another player would have. Settlers can be that close, and Ticket to Ride as well. Furthermore, lots of turns of low impact incremental moves is a dramatic limitation for game designers.Many games we play now have 10 or fewer (LONG) rounds. And some of these games allow a player multiple atomic actions in a row. A game like Steam for example does this which I'll probably review next week. Brass is like this, although it has two phases of between 8 and 10 turns.
Notre Dame uses another technique - there is little player interaction and all players get the same number of moves. I don't think this is unique, but I can't think of another games that handle the problem this way.
Maybe this is one reason I'm so enamored with Vlaada Chvatil at the moment...in Galaxy Trucker, NO ONE GOES FIRST! Same thing with 7 Wonders and Race for the Galaxy. It's all simultaneous. These games have the added advantage that you are rarely waiting for the action to pick up again. These games also tend to have little or no player interaction though, and whether you like that feature or not, it certainly limits a game designer in what they can do.
One last comment. Carcassonne is a bit of a mystery to me. Did you know that there are 71 tiles in the basic game? (does not include the start tile). 71 is prime. This ensures that the last player will get fewer turns than the first player. Why is that? Why did the designer Klaus-Jürgen Wrede do that? Seems intentional, right? Were I designing it my first thought would be to remove some tiles (number depending on number of players) to ensure that each player gets the same number of turns. Perhaps Wrede began that way as well, but evolved his thinking to give the first player an extra turn. Hard to say. Thoughts?
I've been thinking about a mechanic to address (notice I'm avoiding the word 'fix' here) the most egregious cases of turn advantage: To auction positions.
ReplyDeleteThis approach should appeal to all you Neocon's and M. Coats of the world (I know, that was redundant) but with the premise that markets are always right and they auto correct themselves we should auction the starting positions.
How much is worth being second in Stone Age? 3 food? 2 food? I'm sure each one of you has their own opinion about that... So, then let's auction it. Instead of starting with 10 food, let's give everybody 11 food, and then auction each position starting with the most favorable one:
How much food would you pay to be 2nd? you go around once... then same with 3rd, 4th and 1st.
The beauty of this approach is that it is self regulating/adjusting (see what I did there?) and that it could add to the fun of the game.
Also, it is easy to adapt to other games.
You can also add variations to the auctions (auctions are fun): 2nd auctions, reverse auctions, etc
there is no way I am playing a fix that requires Juan to make additional decisions :P
Deletei wonder if mike c. knows we talk about him so much.
Deletethe more i think about it, the more i really like this approach for stone age.
DeleteBy the way, when I say 2nd Auctions, I mean 2nd Price auctions. In these auctions you bid your price, but the winner instead of paying the price he bid he pays the second highest bid.
DeleteThey are a more accurate way to establish the real 'market' price for something... and what is more important: fun!
You'd need a way to keep track of the turn order if you did an auction for all seats.
ReplyDeleteOf course the problem isn't going first, it's taking those two squares (twice). You could also come up with a way to simply disincentivize taking those squares (twice/early).
Also, if you want to gather resources and farm and make babies, play Agricola [although that is a nightmare for Analysis Paralysis]. :)
My only contribution to the 1st player discussion is that I think I figured out why they arbitrarily say "Youngest player goes first." (Or why Reiner Knizia does)
Because they are the most impatient if it's a family setting.
That's my theory, anyway.